[Harry Potter Book 7]

[Something Else]

Since there's some pretty heavy discussion over at RPGnet, I thought I'd try to help it migrate over here a bit. I'd like to politely suggest that we not use spoiler tags in this thread for our random theories, because they're just that: theories. They are not actual spoilers.

To be honest I don't have a lot of speculation, since I only read Half-Blood Prince once before I gave it away. It was actually my favorite book in the series, but I just never got around to reading it again.

I love reading other people's theories, except for debunked ones, which I shall list here:

The following are not true:
-Dumbledore coming back to life
-Voldie & Harry merging to make a superbeing
-Neville being the chosen one
-Voldie and Harry being related
-Anything involving a character with the name of Icicle

The following is highly unlikely:
-It all being a dream.

[ShannonA]

-Dumbledore coming back to life


Well, if that's not true, then it knocks out my own theory.

One of my problems is that I don't think that Rowlings is a very good writer. I can't imagine that a good writer would take away yet another one of the protagonist's best friends, after having done so throughout the books, and I can't imagine a good writer would do all that great development of Snape in book 5 only to effectively dismiss it in book 6.

So my theory presumes that Rowlings is a good writer, she didn't actually do any of those things, and thus:

Dumbledore and Snape hatched a plan to convince Voldemart once and for all that Snape was really on his side. They did so by staging Dumbledore's death in a very public way that could be seen by everyone. The trick is of course that it was staged, and Dumbledore is in hiding, while Snape has become a well-trusted mole. Then in book 7 we'd see Snape's surprising redemption and Dumbledore's return from hiding.

[Something Else]

Dumbledore doesn't fear death though. It's perfectly possible that he decided that Snape's being trusted by Voldemort was more important than his own life.

The best staged death is a real death.

[ShannonA]

Dumbledore doesn't fear death though. It's perfectly possible that he decided that Snape's being trusted by Voldemort was more important than his own life.

The best staged death is a real death.


But if Snape were a good guy, I don't believe he'd willing kill Dumbledore, even if he knew that Dumbledore was OK about it.

Unless Dumbledore convinced Snape that he was going to fake his death, but faked faking his death, which means that he died for real. But that seems kinda obtuse.

[Something Else]

But if Snape were a good guy, I don't believe he'd willing kill Dumbledore, even if he knew that Dumbledore was OK about it.

Unless Dumbledore convinced Snape that he was going to fake his death, but faked faking his death, which means that he died for real. But that seems kinda obtuse.
Dumbledore was begging Snape. Begging.

Now, there are two things he could have been begging for. And remember, it's explicitly said that Snape is very iffy about killing him - Harry can see it on his face.

And he doesn't have to be Good - as in Lawful/Chaotic Good - to be "good," as in "on Dumbledore's side."

[ShannonA]

Dumbledore was begging Snape. Begging.


That's right; I remember that struck me as extremely out of character unless something else was going on.

[Something Else]

That's right; I remember that struck me as extremely out of character unless something else was going on.
Also, look at it this way: Malfoy's a dickwipe, but if Dumbledore lives, he dies at the hand of Voldemort. Dumbledore is Malfoy's headmaster, and would he really save himself at the expense of a student?

[Stephen Tannhauser]

Also, it should be remembered that Snape had sworn an Unbreakable Vow to "carry out the task the Dark Lord [had] set [Draco]" -- he didn't carry that task out, he died.

If you reread Chapter 2 of Book 6 as Snape's incredibly skilled bluff of Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange into revealing Voldemort's plan, it's pretty clear to me that Snape didn't actually know what he was Vowing to do until after he'd already sworn it. My guess is that Snape would have preferred to die himself rather than kill Dumbledore, but Dumbledore, of course, would refuse to let someone else die for him -- quite aside from all the valid points raised about what a perfect double agent this makes Snape.

The interaction between Dumbledore and Harry in Book 6 bears this out. If you think about it, almost every time Dumbledore interacts with Harry, he has this subtle but real urgency and emphasis to him -- like he knows his time is limited and he's trying to arm Harry with as much knowledge as possible, knowing it's almost certain Harry will have to carry out the plan without Dumbledore's help.

[ShannonA]

Well, you two have largely convinced me, which is good, because as I said I'd be unhappy if all that character work on Snape in book 5 was for naught.

[Wakboth]

Also, look at it this way: Malfoy's a dickwipe, but if Dumbledore lives, he dies at the hand of Voldemort. Dumbledore is Malfoy's headmaster, and would he really save himself at the expense of a student?
Remember also that Dumbledore may already be dying from the Horcrux potion; since he and Harry were delayed on the roof, it may well be he knows he will soon die anyway.

[O'Borg]

I love reading other people's theories, except for debunked ones, which I shall list here:

The following are not true:
-Dumbledore coming back to life.

That would spoil my theory as well.
Do you have a cannon source for the debunking, ie JK Rowling herself saying "No, Dumbledore definitely isn't coming back to life."

[Something Else]

That would spoil my theory as well.
Do you have a cannon source for the debunking, ie JK Rowling herself saying "No, Dumbledore definitely isn't coming back to life."
Yes.

http://www.hpana.com/news.19531.html

You shouldn't expect Dumbledore to pull a Gandalf. I need to be more explicit: Dumbledore is definitely dead. I know there's an entire site out there called DumbledoreIsNotDead.com, and I'm sorry they're not going to like this answer.

[Quasar]

Yes.

http://www.hpana.com/news.19531.html

Of course in some ways there's no real need. I mean...he could just appear in one of those paintings for the whole book acting as a guide for Harry.

More Obiwan than Gandalf.

[Stephen Tannhauser]

Of course in some ways there's no real need. I mean...he could just appear in one of those paintings for the whole book acting as a guide for Harry.

More Obiwan than Gandalf.

I think it's been established that the people in portraits are more like clever pseudo-AI simulations of their subject, rather than copies in all the full depth of personality: they can take orders and convey information and behave much like their original subjects, but there are real limits to how much, for lack of a better word, wisdom they can impart. Like Sir Cadogan, from Book III, or the Fat Lady; they certainly seem like full, real personalities, but in practice their conversational and behavioural repertoire strikes me as extremely limited.

Put another way, it strikes me as unlikely portrait-Dumbledore could tell Harry something the real one already hadn't, or give Harry an answer to a question which Harry hadn't already asked the real one.

(Portrait-Phineas Nigellus certainly gives Harry some usefully pithy advice in Book 5, but I get the impression he said very similar things to many of his students in his life.)

Dramatically, of course, the point of Dumbledore's exit is to deprive Our Hero of his Mentor-Figure for the final arc of the heroic journey, so the real reason I'm skeptical is rather meta in its reasoning.

[Red]

there'se penshive to consider. there are probably memories in there that harry hasn't seen and that will help him. im still wondering about that scar shaped like the london underground Dumby mentioned in one of the books.


When JK did a reading at Radio City hall in NY she also confirmed that Dumbnledore is dead and apologized for making dumbledoreisnotdead.com useless. she also kida confirmed that Snape is good, but quickly avoided any further answeringo n it by focusing on DD.


yes DD was begging Snape to kill him on the tower, for Draco and Snapes lives (the vow) there were hints at DD's death from the beginning of the book, that blackened and dead hand as a result from the ring Horcruxe. he was alot more tiered and weary.

DD didn't fear death and would rather sacrifice himself (no i'm not saying its the same type of sacrifice as Lily did and there is no lasting protection on Snape, Draco or harry from his death) than him live and others die because of his actions.

also think back to the argument hagrid said he over heard between Snape and Dumbledore. what ever it was Snape didn't want any part of it but Dumbledore was reminding him of his duties, that he had to. I think this is Snape telling DD abotut he vow and then DD saying that if it came down to it Snape was to kill him to keep Draco from becomming murderer.

the hate that filled Snape was hate at himself for being the one to kill the only person who trusted him, and for Dumbledore forcing his hand in this and making him do it.

but one thing that hangs me up is the vow. personally i think its a set up by Voldemort to trap Sanpe. I think Tom is a bit to smart to be fooled by Snape again and really ther is only one death eater who can give information to Dumbledore without raising suspicion. plus in GoF he had made up his mind to kill snape then, but decided to do it at a later date because Snape had his uses. here's my theory copied from another site

--what if Snape is being set up by you-know-who.

do you guys think voldy is stupid enough to not know that Snape is a double traitor this time around, and that he forgot so easily about the sourcers stone incident, that snape didnt show up at once when he was called to the grave yard.
Voldemort makes referrances to missing Death Eaters, in the Grave Yard scene of GoF. he makes a specific referrance to a Deatheater that is "Lost forever" and "Will have to be killed"

i believe this Deatheater is none other than Snape. even though most people think this is Karkoff, i believe he is the one that voldy says "is to afriad to return".

what if the un-breakable vow is the key to this set up.


HBP, Chapter 2, Pp. 36-37
"Will you Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"
"I will," said Snape.
A thin tongue of brillant flame issued from the wand and wound its way around their hands like a red-hot wire.
"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
"I will," said Snape.
A second tongue of flame shot from the wand and interlinked with the first, making a fine, glowing chain.
"And, should it prove necessary ... if it seems Draco will fail ..." whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
There was a moment's silence. Bellatrix watched, her wand upon their clasped hands, her eyes wide.
"I will," said Snape.
Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake.


that is the Vow word from word from my HBP book.

okay so the first part of the Vow

"Will you Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"

okay pretty obvious here. Snape is to watch over draco as he try's to carry out what ever Voldy asked him to do. Notice that it doesnt say a time frame. so i think this means that as long as Draco is serving Voldy and carring out tasks for Voldy Snape has to watch over Draco.

"And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"

Okay this one is a bit more tricky. this is the catch. Snape is to protect Draco from harm to the best of his abilities. this is Always and forever. or until one or both of them die. it does not say a time frame or specific situation.

"And, should it prove necessary ... if it seems Draco will fail ..." "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"

okay pretty obvious again. if draco cant do the task, then snape has to.


okay two things tip me off at the fact that this is a set up.

1- Why would Cissy care if the task is fulfilled after Draco is dead?? the whole poitn of this vow is to protect Draco ... or is it. maybe voldy is using this as a way to set up Snape for the murder of DD. that way snape is a marked man and has no one to turn to.

what better way to deal with a traitor. (ofcourse, if snape doesn tget killed im sure JK will have this idea back fire on voldy )

2- it talks about ->"and bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake"

the snake puts an image of Voldemort into my mind. maybe its a coded way for JK to tell the reader, "Voldemort is behind this. Snape just messed up big time." and foreshadowing his on comming death

[Elizabeth Brooks]

But if Snape were a good guy, I don't believe he'd willing kill Dumbledore, even if he knew that Dumbledore was OK about it.

Unless Dumbledore convinced Snape that he was going to fake his death, but faked faking his death, which means that he died for real. But that seems kinda obtuse.

Snape swore a magical oath to do what Draco was supposed to do. Draco was supposed to kill Dumbledore, so Snape did it.

[Brad Ellison]

Snape swore a magical oath to do what Draco was supposed to do. Draco was supposed to kill Dumbledore, so Snape did it.

Yeah, they were both backed into a tight corner on that one. If Snape hadn't taken that oath, he'd have blown his cover. Having taken it, he'd have been out of options.

I don't think the "if he were a good guy he wouldn't do that" argument really holds up anyway. Snape may be a good guy, but he's not a nice guy. He's a cold, ruthless bastard, no matter which side he's on.